Blogroll Cesession
Updated twice at the bottom.
I want to state first and foremost that the point of this post is not to be divisive. There may be hurt feelings that come from this post or the comments, and I apologize for that, but I do think it’s a discussion we need to have.
Recently, a new blogroll was started specifically for those pregnant or parenting after infertility. I posted about it last night in the LFCA even though I had misgivings. I found the idea incredibly divisive, a Sneetches moment where bloggers were popping out of the machine with stars upon thars. Instead of standing with the rest of community, they were now separating out. I posted the blurb on the LFCA because I don’t believe I have the right to censor things on the list unless they don’t fit the guidelines of the LFCA. My job is just to post.
We’ve always had a pregnancy and parenting section on the ALI blogroll because that need has always existed to find each other. But it was simply a room in a larger house that is inhabited by all people experiencing infertility. It is another stage vs. a separate existence. Just to be clear, I found the creation of the new blogroll confusing because it was literally a replica of what already exists, with the same people on both lists. I do not find it strange when someone creates, let’s say, an adoption blogroll that includes all members of the triad, since my blogroll only contains adoptive parents. What we have then are two parallel blogrolls that different people might use. What we have here are two identical blogrolls that the same people use.
The recreation of that room as a separate blogroll begs the question: should that room be removed from the ALI blogroll? Should people be removed from the list once they become pregnant or are parenting? It’s a lot of work to maintain the blogroll, and deleting people would be a simple solution. We would lose knowledge and experience; people won’t be able to find and contact someone with their diagnosis who had been successful in order to ask their questions. We would also need to lose categories such as secondary infertility.
But I’m getting a sense from the creation of a separate blogroll that this need exists.
Like the LFCA, I maintain the blogroll so I don’t believe this is a decision I can make on my own. There are over 3000 blogs on the blogroll right now, though it’s at a point where once again it needs to be cleaned up — dead links culled, people moved to new categories. I think we’re at the perfect time to make a decision on this. We certainly don’t need two identical lists, and personally, I don’t want to maintain a list that I don’t need to maintain. In other words, if I’m going to spend hours culling out dead links, I want it to be for a reason; because people want that section of the blogroll.
I am obviously biased — not only did I set up the blogroll six years ago to have parenting after IF be simply one option of many in the world of infertility, but I have always been wholly against anything that separates people. It’s what has been described as my [annoying to some] kumbayaness. But I also know that not everyone thinks like me.
I leave the decision up to you. Should people be removed from the ALI blogroll once they become pregnant or are parenting?
Updated:
I’m jumping into the comment section with this post because I think it’s a public discussion (vs. emailing people directly). So you can find more of my thoughts down there.
I think what it comes down to is not wanting to repeat work. I volunteer at a library. I’m happy to do so and get a lot out of it emotionally. I would be very cranky if someone came in after me, took all the books I reshelved back out, and then set them in place again. The librarians wouldn’t care because they see their need still fulfilled (getting the books back on the shelves). But I care. I care that I am volunteering my time, but it’s unnecessary. I could step back and allow the second volunteer to take over the position and better use my time for a need that is not currently filled. And I guess that is what I see here, from the point-of-view of the volunteer vs. the point-of-view of the blogroll user (the librarian).
Two businesses can certainly exist, selling the same products with overlapping clientele. But this is volunteering — it’s using my time for others vs. using it for myself. I enjoy doing it, just as I enjoy volunteering in the library, and I don’t have a desire to stop. But I want to use my volunteering time well: for needs that aren’t filled vs. maintaining a list that is identical to another one out there.
Second Update:
Discussion in the comment section below has brought out another reason for the new blogroll, and frankly, I think I may need to step away from the Internet for awhile to collect my thoughts. I left this comment below, but thought it important enough to move up here. When it was just a blogroll, it felt like, “feh… this is double work. How can I slip out so we’re not both doing the same thing, and I can take that time for something else.” Learning the rest of the reason for the blogroll has now made me — frankly — angry. To have my ideas used in this way.
Personally, hearing that one of the points of PAIL is to create a separate ICLW event makes it worse. Is the point to simply copy everything I’ve done to try to create community and make the inverse of it — something divisive? I have to admit that while I wasn’t hurt per se before this point, I am now angry to hear my ideas taken and twisted into something exclusive. This absolutely doesn’t have my support in the least if that is one of the reasons to create the list. And frankly, for the people who are supporting it, I don’t fully understand how people can talk about the desire for inclusivity, protection of ideas, supporting one another, and then jump into this project. I truly wish the creator of this list had come up with her own ideas for building community rather than taking my own and twisting them to form something I would be wholly against. My desire is to always build bridges, not to dig moats.
156 comments
NO! The two lists serve different purposes, and are therefore both necessary, IMHO. I for one am parenting after infertility, but most of the people who are parenting after infertility are no longer trying to get pregnant. I joined PAIL because I am still ttc, and most of the people who are reading my blog now are still new to ttc. It is mostly to let people know that I may have subjects on my blog that are uncomfortable to newbies. Most of the traffic on my blog is from people who I am cycling with, and occasionally from people whose blogs I comment on.
I still hope that by being on your blog roll that some people from long ago may find me so that I can touch base with them…find out if they ever did get pregnant or adopted a baby from India like they were hoping to do, for example. I think your blogroll is one of the most important corner stones of the ALI blogging community right now, and I for one would hate to no longer be a part of it.
Absolutely not. I came to this community already a parent, trying for my second child. I’d had one loss, and then quickly found myself experiencing RPL and secondary infertility. Now that I’ve *finally* given birth to my son, I still feel very much a part of this community. I read blogs by folks who are trying, who are pregnant, and (now) who are parents post-IF. But do I want to be sent to a special land–this new community–that is specific to folks who fit my exact situation? No thanks. Haven’t joined it and have no intent on joining it, though I might check out the blogroll to see if there are some other blogs I’d like to read that I’ve missed along the way.
I really hope you keep the parenting subsection alive in YOUR blogroll, Mel, as it really is the largest and most inclusive.
As long as there is a volunteer to maintain it, I am all for having it stay. A new list doesn’t negate the need for the old list. They are overlapping spaces fulfilling similar but slightly differing needs.
Bea
But I don’t think it needs to be Jets and Sharks — mine or anothers. It’s about not repeating work. If the two lists are the same, they both don’t need to exist. Because this isn’t Giant and Safeway both vying for your business with the same products — this is (at least on my part) a person volunteering to provide a service to help the community. If I dropped the blogroll tomorrow, it would free up hours of time. I don’t want to drop the blogroll because I get something out of it emotionally. But I also don’t want to waste time.
Do you see the reason why this would bother me — I spent two hours working on the blogroll last night; adding people, moving people around. It feels like I’m volunteering to paint a wall, and then another person is coming along and painting over my paint. Which begs the question — why bother using my time to paint in the first place? Why don’t I volunteer elsewhere — do something else? If someone wants to take on that section of the blogroll, doesn’t it make more sense for me to delete out everyone who is parenting from my blogroll and they can go over to the other one once they are parenting? It would certainly save me time insofar as cleaning up the blogroll.
No. I like having both those of us still waiting and those who have crossed over on your blogroll. It’s always been a source of hope for me because it lets me see that people do make it out of the hell of IF and to the other side. I know I need that.
I hate the idea of splitting up the blogroll, but I also don’t like the idea of you doing extra work. I, personally, had hoped to stay a part of *this* community if I ever get to the parenting side of things. IDK yet how I’ll feel, when the time comes, about having to move to a different blogroll just because I have a baby, instead of being able to just move to a different room in your blogroll, but right now I don’t like this idea. 🙁 In fact, I find the whole thing disturbing and upsetting and it triggers all my deep childhood issues. Just the fact that those people went and created a separate group makes me squirm and not want to be a part of what they are doing. I saw it, and thought, I’d rather stay on Mel’s blogroll. So that’s my 2c.
When I read that in L&F, my first thought was “why are they doing that? Mel already has that.” Honestly, I don’t plan on submitting myself on the other one because I consider your blogroll to be THE blogroll. And I hate the idea of being kicked off the “main” blogroll just because I have reached the other side. I also kind of think that yours ought to stay because it is established and is even in print, like in Navigating the Land of IF.
Maybe the person starting the new one would want to take over maintenance of that section? Because really, when I read that, I thought “they could just copy and paste from Mel.”
Yeah, I totally see that. And (having not seen the list) if you feel you can just sort of point to it and bow out and can think of fifty other things you’d be better off doing (you and also us, possibly) then I wouldn’t blame you. But even if the list is separately maintained I’d like to see it included somewhere in your roll (eg as a link), for all the reasons you mention. And I have no objection to seeing it duplicated, and in fact duplication is just great from my angle because I do like the idea of two overlapping communities, but I wouldn’t want you killing yourself trying to keep up because it’s probably not super-important to have everything under the exact same umbrella (and I’m sure you can kill yourself in plenty of other ways anyhow).
Bea
When Elphie blogged that she felt lost about where she fit into IF blogland anymore, it struck a chord with many of us. I don’t think that PAIL is about being divisive – it’s about having a blogroll where you have a better idea of what you’re coming across if you’re a part of it. When I was TTC, it was extremely hard for me to come across blogs during IComLeavWe that were now all about parenting/pregnancy (which admittedly, mine is mostly about now). I, for one, haven’t participated in IComLeavWe since my BFP, even though I love it. I just don’t feel comfortable with possibly “inflicting” my blog on another unsuspecting IFer who might not be in a good head space to see MY space. Does that make sense? Maybe that’s something I need to get over? I don’t know. I just know that PAIL was never created with the intention of painting over your hard work. You are truly the heart of this community, and we all appreciate what you do to help us come together and stay together.
I’m not sure what the best “solution” is for this… thanks for starting the discussion.
I guess it depends how the other roll is going to be run and maintained, too. We trust your methods!
I can’t help but think there should be a software solution for this. Something that cuts down the work. But putting someone into the parenting category (or adding a parenting tag, or whatever the solution needs) seems like a very human activity, given all the potential complications.
Bea
I guess what’s not clear to me is what this new list is trying to do that the existing parenting-after-IF subsection of your blogroll doesn’t. I can’t imagine it’s any different. So while I do understand the where-do-I-fit impulse that comes when you move to the “other side”…I don’t get what the new list is for. At all. Except if the person started it simply hadn’t bothered to check your blogroll?
I’m going to come out from my lurking spot to comment on this. I found this community when trying for my first child—I considered myself a member of the community so far as reading/commenting and interacting (and receiving oh-so-helpful support) but I did not start my own blog until I was pregnant with my second child. So my blog has no mention of infertility-related topics, except in the past tense (and only very vaguely and rarely). Because I started blogging at a different time in my journey (and I was so incredibly lucky) I waffled about joining your blogroll. On the one hand, my blog has very little (if anything) to do with IF; on the other hand, the majority of my (very few) readers/commenters and the blogs that I read and comment on are all part of the ALI community. I DO feel different on this inside (though outwardly, I’m sure the scars are well-hidden) because of the struggles I faced conceiving my children, and I feel more comfortable interacting with others that have taken similar paths.
Anyways, I was in the midst of this waffling when I read about the PAIL blogroll. My first thought was—“Wait, doesn’t Mel have a room for this on her blogroll? How is this different?”. I was hoping you had been consulted or included in the discussion about starting PAIL, given all you’ve done to maintain your blogroll over the years. But I admit I did not ask.
I did end of joining the blogroll and I am a little ashamed to say it was mostly a “following the herd” decision, as a lot of the blogs I read were joining and I figured “why not”. Reflecting upon this more today I completely get where you are coming from and I understand your frustration and hurt and I am so sorry that I am in any small way a part of that. I realize now that I need to really think, ask, and consider before joining a virtual group just as much as I would a real-life one.
Even though I’m currently “parenting after IF,” we’re still not through with building our family. So, as a use case, if you stop keeping your blogroll, I would have to go to the other blogroll, then leave there when we ttc again, then get booted back to another site if/when we’re successful?
I think that sounds like a horrible idea.
Like you said, it’s incredibly divisive and disrupts the flow of our community as people transition through multiple stages in their journey.
This is a really tricky one. I think it would be very sad to loose this section of the blogroll, as April says, it is hope for the rest of us. I do however absolutely 100% agree that is unfair for you to have to double up work which is happening elsewhere. I am not sure I fully understand the need for a separate group but I also think if that is what these bloggers feel they need they probably have a reason for feeling that way. I don’t know what to suggest, but I feel that you were right to start this dialogue as a start. I would like to understand the need for another space better and I hope this dialogue will highlight this.
Even though I’m now a parent after five years of trying to become one, my husband and I are both just as infertile as I was before and will still have to go through the same motions in order to have any future children. My blog was a huge part of my coping process through infertility. Ever since I’ve become a parent, it’s been hard to find stuff to write about because I’m in a different place now than I was before and don’t have as much to work through emotionally, but I know that if we try to have another child it will once again become a place of refuge while I sort through my thoughts. I’ve hoped that my blog can be a beacon for others to come across facing the same types of infertility and I hate the idea that I’d get removed from the ALI blogroll because I’m a parent now, just in case my story could help one other person.
Of course this is your decision, and I hear you about not wanting to spend your time doing something that is identically replicated somewhere else – because your time is worth a lot and you could choose to do something different (better!) with it.
I wonder though…Where will people dealing with SIF feel at home? Will this new blogroll be maintained with the same care and attention? Will it feel alienating to people who do achieve pregnancy to have to “switch communities”? What about people who are pregnant, but suffer a miscarriage, must they hop back and forth?
It’s not that I can’t empathize with both sides…but when I’m uncertain I tend to err on the side of inclusion. Part of what I find so magical about the IF community is that people are so universally supportive of their fellow bloggers – even if the situations or choices are different from their own.
Thank you for opening this up to discussion. These are my thoughts now, but if others create compelling arguements I’m certainly open to change.
Hi delurker here,
I don’t have a blog but I found this blogroll while my partner and I were trying to conceive and struggling with infertility. I was in awe of the commitment it took to put this all together and it was an awesome resource for me as I searched for other lesbian families dealing with infertility.
Almost two years after we started trying with my partner (who is significantly older), we decided to try with me. I consulted the blogroll again to try to find couples who had switched partners mid-stream to get a sense of how they navigated that. The blogroll was again an excellent resource.
When we got pregnant, I used the blogroll to find other families who were post IF and pregnant and due around the same time.
In other words, every time we’ve moved into a different stage on the journey, I’ve consulted the blogroll and been able to find similarly placed individuals.
Sadly, I haven’t been able to commit to blogging myself, so it has been a one way relationship but I try to comment as often as I can so I feel like I am giving something back to the community.
Mel, I am in awe of your commitment to this community. You really are an incredible person to dedicate so much time to building this resource and engaging this community in constructive ways.
I can certainly understand how hurtful it would be to have someone come in and attempt to recreate what you have built over these years.
At the very least, they should have consulted with you to see if there were opportunities to collaborate.
As some have suggested, perhaps they could have instead maintained that section of your blogroll.
I think this is one of those things where the process was the problem. They should have consulted with you. That would have respected the effort and time you have put in over the years.
I am sorry this has worked out this way. I hope this discussion yields something constructive. At the very least, I want you to know that even those of us who don’t blog, appreciate your work, thoughtfulness and dedication.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
If I would have signed up for that blogroll were would I have been today due to my recent loss? To go back and forth between them both doesn’t make sense to me. The first thought I had when I first read about it was: why? when it’s already there. And if we are blessed with another pregnancy and a healthy baby, parenting for a while and then trying for a sibling (one can dream) we would be back to having to use treatments.
So, yeah I would be much more comfortable staying on your blogroll than being moved around. And if this is a question of not wanting to step on anyones toes during ICLW, then I would encourage all of the pregnant/parenting blogs to sign up anyways. The tagging is supposed to show where in the process you are, right. isn’t that he whole idea?
Like I have commented on a few blogs writing about this: I dont get the need for a duplication. At all. And yes, it does ruffle my feathers!
I saw this post coming when the PAIL list was started. I have to say that I dig through the parenting section of your blogroll for inspiration. I also look for women with similar issues that I might be able to connect with (although thus far I seem to be the only infertile uvetitis/lupus girl on earth! ) Your blogroll has been VERY valuable during times when I am at my worst and feeling completely hopeless. I love reading about peoples success. It was also very beneficial when my husband and I were having the one vs. two embryo debate. I prowled around the parenting blogs to see how many women had twins. How complicated were those pregnancies, etc.? If I had to seek out a second list on another Web site I don’t think it would be as easy to do this research. I sincerely hope you keep this list up!
This is a good discussion. I remember when I first found the blog roll. I didn’t pay any attention to it at first because every blog under PCOS was dead, pregnant or parenting. It was not what I was looking for. I was looking for women still at the same stage in the battle that I was. I came back a couple of months later and gave it another chance. I’m glad that I did, but I understand why this discussion needs to be had.
I don’t think a duplicate list is necessary. I like the blogroll as is, mostly, but I was very happy when the list got updated to include weather links were pregnant/parenting/etc. Like many other diagnoses, PCOS doesn’t go away just because you have a baby, but have a relatively current status for the blogs listed would be ideal. Now keeping them updated is the hard part.
I would be personally willing to check statuses of the PCOS section a couple times a year and help with the maintenance there. I think there used to be the idea that each section would have volunteers to upkeep each section. But I know that creates a lot of work for Mel too. I think there could be some fine tuning done to the statuses… like I don’t think it’s necessary to label a blog as “pregnant” because that is temporary and if there is a loss, who want to come back and see themselves listed as pregnant, so I’d just wait to label them as parenting at the next update.
So I don’t think a second, virtually duplicate list is appropriate or necessary. More volunteer help to maintain the individual “rooms” would be great, but the blogroll needs to be sustainable above all.
You have a great point. I think the parenting after must stay as a room in your blog roll house to complete one type of IF journey. Me personally-I want others ttc with the unique condition I also have (unicornuate uteris) to be able to find me and read how I got to a full term baby just as I found blogs that did when I was ttc. And I want to
connect with those now parenting. Sounds like your blog roll accomplishes that. I just need to look. That being said, I did join pail based on ass-umptions bc my time and brain as a new mom is too limited to bother to do the proper research I should have and I forgot that a room like this existed in your created house. I assumed that because this was being created by one of the “cool kids” of the Ali community that it was done both bc such a thing did not exist and in consultation with said “cool kids” leader (you) so as to not duplicate or step on toes. Obviously I was wrong. Please keep your full journey possibilities blogroll complete!
It certainly seems repetitive. Your website and blogroll is a great source of information and comfort for many women, and I DEFINITELY think that the parenting/pregnant after IF section should remain.
Maybe the creator of the PAIL list didn’t realize you had a designated “room” for that already…?
Wow, what a complicated, duplication of effort type mess. Let me first say that as someone who has been reading blogs for 5 years and who has had my own for 2, I had never heard of PAIL (or Eggs and Sperm) until this post by you. I absolutely consider you to be a national treasure and clearinghouse for the ALI community and a sort of de facto expert when it comes to ALI blogging/bloggers.
I completely get why, if you had your druthers and could free up some time, you’d opt to drop the parenting after IF blogroll maintenance from your house & spend time doing other work. But, I will say, Mel, that as much as the duplication of effort seems completely redundant, YOU are the clearinghouse, like it or not. And, with that, comes a certain degree of responsibility to the community at large that you helped build. Anything/one else is just a reasonable facsimile.
I don’t know, I absolutely see parenting after IF as being a huge part of the struggle with IF..it IS where everyone with IF is hoping to go, no matter what path they may take. I’ve been a parent thru IVF for 5 years all the while trying every which way to have #2 and I feel like as much if not a bigger part of this community now in that our struggle for #2 has been more than double as long as it was for #1. My link to this community through YOU is my lifeline. Others may have put their big girl panties in & feel like they have “graduated”, but I do not.
I would rather see you take on a volunteer to help manage the blogroll than have you abandon that room (or even link to someone else’s version of it).
YOU have our trust and THIS is a safe place for us.
Thanks for starting the discussion on this Mel.
I too was confused by the start of the PAIL blogroll. First, because I knew you had already created such a list. Secondly, because it felt exclusive. I understand where Elphaba is coming from: she’s blogged about no longer identifying as infertile after the birth of her daughter. But I also think she jumped the gun by creating this list and not opening it up for discussion first. Because, to me, it feels like she’s handing out club keys to those who have reached the end of their journey while showing them off to those of us still in the trenches. It’s hard not to be hurt by that.
So I have a suggestion: how about a collaboration? I know a lot of the time it’s easier just to have one person maintain a list, but here’s an individual who’s looking for an outlet to feel part of the community. Think of it as taking on an apprentice.
Finally, I love the blogroll. The way it’s set up allows for a newbie like me to easily access information and it fits the spirit of community.
@Christy, I think you identified something really important when you said “it feels like she’s handing out club keys to those who have reached the end of their journey while showing them off to those of us still in the trenches.”
I don’t think it was intentional, but it’s hard not to feel like the loser on the playground in elementary school. We get enough of that out in the real world.
I think if you had to categorize me, I’d be “foster to adopt parenting after IF and TTC over 35 without secondary IF since I technically never had the first.”
As far as maintenance, maybe send out an email to all participants once a year to confirm their status. Some may have forgotten they are on the list in the first place.
FYI, sperm is a blocked term on some company’s websites in case people want to check PAIL through their work computer.
I am one of those bloggers who is now parenting, but whose blog remains in her original diagnosis room. When I recently moved from Blogger to WP, I emailed you to make the address change and asked–out of concern for others with our diagnosis who may not wish to stumble onto a blog now focused more centrally on parenting through infertility–should my blog be moved to the parenting section now? And you offered that staying put in my category would make it easier for others to find me. And I found so much wisdom in that. Because, the thing is? A blog is valuable no matter where the person is on their journey, or even if the blog is no longer being updated. The history still exists and is still helpful. I can tell when an unknown lurker has been sifting through my archives, and when I see that those pages have hits it brings me some comfort to know that perhaps, though I am beyond that part of my journey now, my experiences maybe continue to be insightful/valuable in some way. And for that reason alone I am happy not being relocated to the parenting room.
I didn’t join the new blogroll. I just didn’t see the point in it for me. I do have an IF parenting blog peer group already; fortunately many of the bloggers I started reading when I started my blog have also added to their families through various means over the years. I haven’t found it that difficult to locate other IF parenting bloggers, either. It’s a simple matter of reading/blog-hopping for me.
I am curious: would there be difficulty for you if blogs were shelved on duplicate shelves in the blogroll? Would it meet others’ needs if, using my blog as an example, my blog was posted both on the MFI/Varicocele AND the parenting shelf?
Your time is valuable (for you and for those of us who reap the benefits of your efforts in this community) and I don’t wish to see your time squandered either.
I’m glad you’re addressing this head on. I also think it’s okay to say you feel hurt by it – because that’s what it sounds like, and I know I would be hurt if I were in your situation.
I am uncomfortable with PAIL because of how it divides the IF community into people who crossed to the other side and people who are still fighting through. I am uncomfortable with the idea of – in a way – *leaving* the ALI community now that I’m pregnant, so long and thanks for all the fish style. A few of the bloggers I’ve followed did that while I was still trying to get pregnant and it hurt to think that all that time that I’d supported them is now forgotten.
What also doesn’t sit well with me is the thought of joining while pregnant and potentially (Gd forbid) losing the baby(ies) – what happens then? There’s no good way to deal with that the way things are set up now.
I like the format of ICLW because the blogs are all self-identified. Maybe something that encourages women to self-identify as parenting or pregnant will make the women more comfortable so that it’s not an accidental discovery. Who knows.
You do a lot of amazing work that is very very much appreciated by people around the world struggling with infertility. I hope this experience doesn’t cloud that for you.
And I didn’t say this in my previous comment, but THANK YOU for all of your hard work and time spent organizing the lists, ICLW, and many other things you do for us. You are incredibly appreciated, Mel!
I did join the other blogroll. But my reason was not one that I have seen listed here yet.
I joined it because I join lots of blogrolls. I always think of the person out there who is looking and stumbles on one blog and might only see that one blogroll. If you are big into reading blogs (like me), you will inevitable end up here. But if you are feeling lost and don’t have the time that some of us do, I want to be sure that my story can be found and read. I think my story can bring hope to someone after a loss and I want it in as many places as possible. I go into them with the impression that they will probably help someone at some point, but they won’t last over time. I honestly hadn’t thought about it since I signed up.
I think of all other blogrolls as secondary to this one. I keep a small list on the sidebar of my blog. I don’t do it as a blogroll to use *instead* of yours. It’s just another way for us all to link together. I email out your link constantly, it is THE place to find healing and friendships.
My opinion (although I don’t think it matters – your are the one who needs to make the decision) is that you should continue as you are. I look to you as the Capitol (not in a bad Hunger Games way!) of our blogging world. You are steady and solid and dependable.
If you decide to remove the parenting side of the list, then I would only ask that you keep a link to it here. And to get a promise that it will be watched over.
Hmmm. Below are some of my thoughts about this, presented in somewhat disjointed format.
My background: I don’t blog. I do read and comment. I am a mom. Without the internet, I doubt I would be. Julie at ALP and Julia at Hippogriffs, among others, kept me going when it seemed like everything and everyone else was wanting me to stop. My son was conceived 2006 via IVF after starting ttc in 2002 with a vasectomy reversal for my DH and moving in 2003 to IVF when it was clear the reversal had failed. I failed to move past SIF, having decided after 1 more FET and 2 more IVFs that a younger sibling for DS was not in the cards. I am a stepmom and have been before, during, and after IF. I am now cautiously hopeful that stepgrandmotherhood may be in my future but if the married (philosophically though not, darn laws, legally) one of my stepkids provides the grandchild, that will involve some level of IF tx as the partnership is same-sex. IF is part of my world.
I was recently struck by how viscerally I can relate to what Mo of Life and Love in the Petri Dish posted on 2/14. The POAS, the desire for a beta. I can feel that in my gut so much more than I can remember the details of the early days of my son’s life. I don’t say that as a sad thing — they were 2 different experiences, the latter positive if exhausting and something we muddled through, the former crushing in the moment even though it turned out the eventual outcome I most feared at the time — never becoming a mom — didn’t happen. The former marked me forever. Even today, I have more to say to the ttc-er, at least, to some ttc-ers, than I do to the new mom. I do follow some mom blogs that aren’t post-IF blogs or aren’t listed on your blogroll (one is actually an adoptive SMC blog and another is co-blogged by a PG-and-mothering-with-PCOS-and-after-loss so could in principle belong there), but most of the mom blogs I read are moms I met when they were ttc through IF and/or loss and have continued to follow.
I was puzzled by PAIL because like others have said I thought that community was already represented in the extant blogroll. I didn’t click over until you posted this, as once you had I wanted to see what I was discussing. I have to say I disagree somewhat with your view that PAIL duplicates that portion of your blogroll. To me, duplication would mean a blogroll that contained all, and only, the information in that section of your blogroll. PAIL has much less (at least, right now, counted in sheer numbers of blogs) and it is differently presented (listed by age of kid). Whether that is a useful alternative or not, I don’t know, but I don’t think it constitutes a duplication.
I can imagine PAIL taking on a life of its own, perhaps attracting new members who find their way there through the blogs of existing members but not also finding their way here. I have to say I consider that a downside in the sense that I do, for reasons to which I allude above in my background, very much value the inclusiveness of this community and its continuity across the life course. Someday (soon for me I hope, as noted) we’ll be blogging about grandmothering after IF — right?
At the same time, I wonder if there might be a way to combine forces, to allow the energy going into PAIL to instead be directed at updating and maintaining that portion of your blogroll.
I think you blogroll is too big and it feels intimidating and impersonal to me. That’s why I joined PAIL. The people who joined at the same time as me I already felt like I ‘knew’ because I had met them when we were cycling together. There are a whole new set of challenges that arrive when you get your BFP after infertility and/or loss. I don’t think anyone intends to exclude folks still waiting for their BFPs. Personally, I write for myself. I read for myself. I need to read about success stories for me to stay in a mentally healthy place. PAIL works for me. Your blogroll does not. Your blogroll is what many others want and need. From the supportive comments I read here it does not appear that you are wasting your precious volunteer time.
I totally understand where you’re coming from. To answer your question, I don’t think anyone should be removed from a blogroll just because they are pregnant and/or parenting, unless they want to be. I think they still have a lot to offer others who are going through similar struggles they went though.
I asked for my blog to be added to your Pregnancy After Loss room last month because I was looking to connect with those who might be pregnant after a miscarriage. So I’ll admit to I’m newish to all of this. I guess I’m just trying to find “my place” as none of my friends have experienced pregnancy/baby loss and I’ve had a hard time finding people who understand how I’ve been feeling being pregnant after an early pregnancy loss. I signed up for ICLW and read about women who were pregnant after a loss, but they also struggled with IF before getting pregnant — something I really didn’t go through. I kind of left ICLW feeling like I was in between worlds. I had a loss, but the fact that I didn’t really experience IF sometimes made me feel a little awkward when I would try and comment on someone’s blog. It was the feeling of in-betweenness that Elphie wrote about, along with comments to that post from others who seemed to be in a similar situation as me, that made me think about, and then decide to, sign up for PAIL.
I was on the fence about joining PAIL because you do have the same thing on your blogroll. I’ve only been part of your blogroll for a few weeks, but I can tell that you’ve been awesome with keeping things up to date. I’ve seen other infertility/infant loss blogrolls on the web that are similar to yours, but haven’t been updated in years. I don’t know how/if this other blogroll is going to be kept updated/maintained. It’s new enough that I’m playing the “wait and see how this goes” game with it. Personally, I like the idea of having both available. I may get in touch with people I wouldn’t otherwise get in contact with here. Your list is also way more comprehensive which gives people the opportunity to read blogs regarding multiple situations, not just parenting/pregnancy after loss. Plus some people may feel more comfortable staying within one site vs. having to hop from one person’s blog site to another depending on their situation. I don’t have any intention of asking to be removed from your blogroll unless you’d prefer it that way. If the other blogroll doesn’t seem to work out, then I like knowing I still have a place here.
Ultimately, I’d hate to see you delete the pregnancy/parenting after loss rooms, but I am fully aware that that takes a lot of time to keep something like this updated. I do appreciate it though! I also hate the idea of you spending hours maintaining something if you don’t feel it’s necessary.
No matter what, I’ll definitely be keeping you on my blogroll as I think this site is an awesome resource.
Just because you’re parenting after IF doesn’t mean you’re done. I have 5 1/2 year old twins and we are currently trying again. I don’t see the need for another list, but if someone wants to create one fine. However, I want all my resources in one place. I sort of see this as a pretty decent slap in the face to you, Mel, not because I think that two lists can’t co-exists, but because it just seems like rather than opening a discussion in the community that already exists I don’t like that basically it was started behind the scenes. I don’t know. I’m in a very crappy place in my TTC journey, staring down the barrel of a gun of my impending “last try” this year and yet still parenting. Where do I belong? I want to be HERE. And that’s where I’m staying.
I don’t see it as a switching back and forth, or leaving one wall to go to another. I find that the PAIL blog roll list as a more active/subset of the parenting after infertility room that Mel has set up. Most of the bloggers on the parenting after infertility list that Mel has set up are 1) parenting older children 2) no longer actively trying to conceive 3) haven’t considered the IF part of the equation in some time. I am on that list, and have been since I started my blog. BUT I’m also actively ttc, and have recently suffered a pretty devastating loss. I guess what I’m saying is that PAIL seems more of a sub category, not a replacement for Mel’s blog list. For example, most of the bloggers on PAIL seem to be parents of new babies or toddlers and/or ttc again after a loss or newly pregnant. I need that kind of support, and frankly, most of the parenting after infertility people are no longer in that place. That doesn’t mean that the blog roll still isn’t very important, and by no means a waste of Mel’s time. I’m just trying to find the place where I belong, and where my posts will find the people that they speak to the best.
I definitely think that energy that is going into recreating the wheel could go into fixing up that section of the blogroll. I will also take any help offered in maintaining the list. Baby Smiling in Back Seat once took on the task of going through over 1000 blogs, moving them around. When the blogroll gets cleaned once a year, it is always with volunteers.
I didn’t know about PAIL until last night when I read it on the LFCA. I would have loved a discussion about the blogroll prior to this. We often end up with new categories as people suggest new ones. We changed the language in the loss room by group consensus. We could obviously change the layout of a room as well or create smaller categories within the room.
I am very grateful for this discussion, and it’s helping me solidify ideas.
I lurk more than I comment (bad, I know!), but wanted to add my two cents. I had no idea about this secondary blogroll. I guess I would be eligible to join, given I am now parenting after IF, but personally, I would much rather stay on your blogroll for a number of the reasons listed above by other posters.
Hopefully my family is not yet complete. If the ‘parenting after IF’ room disappears from your blogroll, does that mean I have to move over to this other one, then move back when we start ttcing for number #2, even though some of my posts will no doubt still be about number #1, then get shunted back over there if/when number #2 arrives? What if we suffer losses en route- do I have to bounce back and forth again?
I also don’t really like the idea of exclusion- both that the participants in the new blogroll are excluding anyone else who hasn’t yet managed to grasp that gold ring (if I may use your land of IF analogy, it’s like all those who got off the island get to board a cruise ship and shout, “See ya, suckers!” to those left behind, still struggling…or at least that’s how it feels to me), and it feels excluding to have those who are pregnant/parenting removed from your blogroll.
I don’t know the person who started the new blogroll, but speaking only for myself, I know that I absolutely do NOT feel that I have somehow overcome my infertility through having E. I still very much identify with the IF community. If anything, I’m more open about talking about it in my ‘real’ life now that we have E.- more likely to say that it took us a long time to get him and that we were very lucky when people start asking about siblings.
What it boils down to, for me, at least, is I trust you, and I trust (and love) your blogroll. I trust that it will still be there, and that through it I can find anyone in my situation who wants to be found. I just don’t feel the same way about this new one. I feel that pregnant/parenting after IF is just a continuation of the IF spectrum. While I was in the trenches, a lot of the blogs I read became pregnancy/parenting ones, and while sometimes they were hard to read, they were also so helpful to see that sometimes things did work out.
That said, I do understand that this is a huge amount of work for you, and it would be deeply frustrating to find that it was being duplicated for no real apparent reason. Would there be a way to enlist more people to help maintain the blogroll? Maybe people could check the blogs in one section every six months to see if they need to be moved, and/or drop an email to the writer, and then report back to you (or have multiple people checking sections for the larger lists). Or could you post twice a year asking people to check where they are in your blogroll and to email you if they need to move categories (as I’ve just realized I’m still in the PCOS room and should now be over in parenting, assuming it stays there)? I don’t know what your blogroll process is and how you go about it, but I know I would vote for keeping the blogroll as complete as possible and in one place- your space. Given the amount of time and energy you expend on it, it would be great if there was some way to get others to help cut down on the amount of maintenance you need to do.
I also wonder, given some of the other comments above about trying to find people in similar situations who were successful, whether, if the pregnant/parenting category stays in your blogroll, it might be an option to ultimately have in brackets after the blog’s name what the major diagnosis was, and what was the treatment protocol that worked: so I would be Res Cogitatae (PCOS, IVF/ICSI). That way someone who was looking for PCOSers who did get pregnant would be able to find them quickly in that huge list of pregnant/parenting bloggers. Obviously there is no way that you should be going through the blogs to determine this, as that would take forever and would be an insane waste of your time, but bloggers could send their details to you (or to someone else who could keep it organized and then send the final list to you), and eventually their entries could be adjusted. I have no idea how much more time it would take to adjust the blog titles to include that info- maybe it would be far too time consuming to be worthwhile from your perspective. It was just a thought.
I really appreciate everything you do for this community, and I hope something can be figured out to allow you to feel that it is worthwhile to keep the parenting room in your blogroll.
I think that the ladies who have finally gotten pregnant just want a label or badge that makes them connected and distinct from the entire world of pregnancy and parenting. If (when) I get pregnant, I would like that “badge” too, but I wouldn’t need to be on any other blogroll. Is there any possibility of incorporating the two ideas together? (I see that the above poster had the same idea…sorry to repeat.)
Oh Mel. (((hugs))) to you. I feel terrible that you are experiencing this hurt. You do so much for the community and I feel terrible for having joined PAIL now. I joined yesterday and in the back of my mind I felt like I was double dipping of sorts.
I think others have commented before me about feeling a bit out of place on the current blog roll. I know after I had Kaitlin I was searching desparately for a new group of bloggers to read that were also parenting. I’d scour the LFCA for birth announcements and that’s how I’d find my new blogs. And I still do that. Except now I’m thinking about TTC #2 and there seems to be an even smaller group of people in this category. So maybe the answer isn’t to have a new blog roll but to have a new category for TTC again? I’m not sure?
My thoughts:
Elphaba may have different readers, other readers, than you do. People who don’t know about your blogroll because they know her from elsewhere. If it helps more people connect, how is it a bad thing? At the same time, I really don’t see a need for two blogrolls. She could just as easily put a link on her blog to that section of your blogroll and have the same effect.
I contemplated listing myself on the other blogroll as well, just to see if there were more readers. I read through some of the descriptions people have of their blogs, however, and felt even more intimidated and like I didn’t belong – quite the opposite of the intended, I suppose. Thank you, Mel, for making your blog/blogroll welcoming, with a space for all. And thank you for creating and maintaining it!
I joined the PAIL blogroll too. Mostly because I saw it as an active subset of Bloggers on the Roll; maybe I’d find some others who are struggling with TTC again like I am.
It seems I’m in an odd place; parenting but also still struggling with IF as well, and it’s hard for me to find people who are in the same boat as me. And The Blogroll is so big. I am amazed and overwhelmed by how many blogs are on it and it seems somewhat of a Herculean task to read through that many people in the hopes I’ll find a blog sister to share my own journey.
But maybe it’s because I’m lazy, or been around for waaaaaay too long and miss the community when it was small and everyone knew everyone.
Personally, I think you do an amazing job at keeping tabs on the ENTIRE community. It’s big and shifting all the time and I honestly don’t know how you do it. You’re amazing.
But also, I need a smaller space to find people like me, too. I have to think in this big Internet there are people who are struggling with stopping treatments for TTC #2 like I am. And that’s what I was hoping to get from PAIL.
xoxo
I feel like I have to comment on this, as I actually posted about what I perceived as the exclusivity of PAIL (even though I joined it) last week only to receive a bunch of comments about how I’m only seeing the negative in a positive situation and how I had gotten it all wrong. I have to admit, I’m feeling a little vindicated that others viewed it similarly.
Having said that, I did join PAIL and I feel I have to explain why I did. For one thing, I have noticed that there are a lot of ghost blogs on your blogroll. While I understand the value of keeping up a blog for the archives, I always found those frustrating when I was looking for new people because I don’t want to read archives, I want to follow people who are experiencing things here and now. I understand that it’s a lot of work to weed those out, but if they were in an Archived section I think it would be much easier to navigate your blogroll. Maybe people could sign up to do that for you, so you wouldn’t have to do it all yourself.
The other reason I added myself to PAIL was because I heard they planned on doing an ICLW type comment events. I used to sign up for ICLW every month but found that when I was pregnant, and especially after I had my daughter, no one came to my blog. I always tagged myself as parenting after loss, because I would hate for someone to stumble on me thinking I were a TTC blog, but ultimately I think it kept people away. After many months of leaving 42+ comments on new blogs and getting maybe five or six in return I just felt there was no point in participating. I never got new readers and I rarely found new blogs to read. There just aren’t a lot of parenting after IF blogs on the ICLW list and I think that is because they don’t get visited. And I understand why and I don’t begrudge people for not coming to my blog when they are in the trenches. I think ICLW is an incredibly powerful event for those just starting their IF journey or those who feel everyone is “graduating” to pregnancy or parenting while they are stuck TTC, but it is not a very productive way of meeting people for those of us who are on the other side.
Reading this post, and seeing it from your perspective, I totally understand your frustration at doing a bunch of work that someone else is doing elsewhere. Having said that, I do think your blogroll is special and different and I would hate to see the pregnant and parenting sections go. Like you said, in your blog roll pregnancy and parenting are rooms in the house of ALI, there is a place for everyone and people move from room to room as their journey requires. I love that idea and am so much more comfortable with that than a list where it has to be asked what the protocol is for women who have lost a pregnancy or a child. Where do they go? Are they just deleted, only to be added again when they fit the requirements? That is what makes me uncomfortable.
So I feel very unsure of what to do. One the one hand I worry the list is exclusive, on the other hand I want to participate in a commenting event where I will feel included. I don’t know what the answer is, I honestly don’t. I’m sorry I’m not being very helpful but hopefully my comment makes it more clear why people joined the list even if they had concerns similar to your own.
Esperanza brought out some of these concerns as well. I guess that my interpretation of the new list was that it isn’t even attempting to be the kind of comprehensive list that yours is (if it came down to a real question of duplication and a choice between one or the other, I don’t think a single person would want to separate from THE list). I got the impression that PAIL is intended to be more of a discussion group where people who are actively working through the special circumstances of adapting to parenting or pregnancy after IF/loss gather. Anybody interested in these kind of discussions (whatever their parenting/pregnancy status) could stop in to discuss and those who just don’t want to hear about such things because they are either more mature parents or still cycling, etc. might gain a bit of protection from all the morning sickness/breastfeeding talk.
I’m glad that you started this discussion. Although it is fairly normal for people to separate themselves into subgroups within a large community, it can also be divisive. I really don’t think that was the intention, however.
To me, the whole point of being on your blogroll even though I’m now past the IF part of my story is to act as a light in the darkness. Particularly because I have a relatively obscure diagnosis, I want to be there for others to see that yes, you can get here from there. When I was TTC I took great comfort from reading the archives of people who had made it through successfully, and I would hope that my blog can be that to others. (In fact, I know it is, because I still get comments on very old posts thanking me.) If you removed the parenting blogs from your blogroll, regardless of whatever other duplicate blogrolls exist out there, I think that does a disservice to those who are looking to find people who are farther along the road than themselves.
My first thought when I read this post was to be a little offended on your behalf, like, why would anyone feel the need for another blogroll? But reading the other comments, I wonder if (not knowing anything about this “other” blogroll) the idea there is to create a community for those who want to talk mostly about parenting, and who no longer identify as IF? In which case I can see the point of having that blogroll, and can see how the two lists might eventually diverge. For example, there might be plenty of people who never blogged about infertility at all, and so their archives wouldn’t really be useful to someone in the trenches–but they still want to join a community of others with whom they have a shared past. Or, I can see that blogroll being a good place for those who start a whole new blog once they become parents (and their old IF-focused blog stays on your blogroll).
Although I now blog about parenting and pregnancy topics, the raison d’etre of my blog is IF. I would probably not be inclined to join the other blogroll simply because I (as someone who is no longer trying to build up her blog readership) don’t really have a need/desire to connect with other parenting-after-IF folks specifically. I WOULD want to be kept on your list, even if I eventually stopped posting regularly or at all, because I would want my treatment and other IF archives to be available to others who are just starting their journey.
I do recognize that this is all a lot of work for you, though, and I think everyone here would respect whatever decision you made.
(PS My perspective on this may be a bit different from others because I am not actually listed in the “pregnancy and parenting” room, but in the diagnosis room with the note “(parenting)” after my blog link. So I suppose even if you got rid of the pregnancy and parenting room, those of us who are still associated with a specific diagnosis would remain?)
It’s ultimately your decision, but I hope you don’t start deleting rooms from your blog roll. I did join PAIL, but not because I am unhappy being on your blog roll. I signed up because I figured there may be different people reading your blog than read hers and I like to be able to connect with as many like minded bloggers as possible.
I do feel bad if my participation has hurt your feelings,,,, that certainly was not my intent.
@electriclady I wanted to say that while I think you’re right, that a lot of people did join PAIL because they want to discuss parenting outside of the context of IF or loss, I don’t believe most did. If we wanted to do that we could go visit regular mommy blogrolls and find new readers/blogs there. Having said that, I do believe everyone experiences their IF/loss journey differently in parenthood. I, for one, don’t even blog much about actual parenting but I find that mostly it is those parenting that want to read my blog, because my daughter and motherhood do pop up here and there, probably more regularly than I even realize. They color everything I say I’m sure so it’s understandable that other mothers want to read my blog. Still, loss is a big part of my life and that also colors most of what I say. It’s a strange place to be, because it’s not just what you write about but how you write about it. I think that is what separates parenting after IF/loss blogs and regular mommy blogs. I think that could happen on the blogs of either blogroll though.
Okay. I, too, joined PAIL. And here are a few of my thoughts. First, I’m so sorry that anyone’s feelings were hurt! I don’t think any of us intended that, or for it to feel exclusive in any way. As others have said, though I am impressed by the number of blogs on The Blogroll, the sheer number sometimes overwhelms me. Also, I also like the idea of PAIL having its own ICLW-ish commenting event. I have participated in ICLW here several times and find it frustrating to comment 42+ times and get maybe half of those comments returned. I realize that I’m in a different place than many of the other participants, so why not also participate in something that may leave me feeling more included. And, last thing, as someone else said, one of the big reasons I joined is because I want to have my blog read, so why not participate in something else that could help? Although, last I checked, I was the only one who was parenting after adoption, so I don’t know that PAIL is exactly where I fit either.
OK. This is hard.
A few people have mentioned that they are a part of forums/discussion groups for parenting after infertility and those groups are secret and invitation-only. I haven’t been invited to them. Which, stings.
I think there isn’t a robust place for non-members to talk about parenting after infertility, and that’s why I thought PAIL was a brilliant
idea. It’s out in the open, not secret, and anyone parenting after infertility could join in.
It hurts to see hurt feelings about it, though. And I get people’s points. I would never want to leave the ALI community as a whole.
You ARE the Capitol of ALI land. And it pains me that you were hurt, too. You’re rad 🙂
Personally, hearing that one of the points of PAIL is to create a separate ICLW event makes it worse. Is the point to simply copy everything I’ve done to try to create community and make the inverse of it — something divisive? I have to admit that while I wasn’t hurt per se before this point, I am now angry to hear my ideas taken and twisted into something exclusive. This absolutely doesn’t have my support in the least if that is one of the reasons to create the list. And frankly, for the people who are supporting it, I don’t fully understand how people can talk about the desire for inclusivity, protection of ideas, supporting one another, and then jump into this project. I truly wish the creator of this list had come up with her own ideas for building community rather than taking my own and twisting them to form something I would be wholly against. My desire is to always build bridges, not to dig moats.
I hear what you’re saying about not wanting to duplicate work. But I see YOU as the ALI community organizer. I don’t know who did this new blogroll, and I haven’t checked it out, but if it’s not you, I don’t see it as THE source. I still want to be on your blogroll, pregnant and parenting after IF.
Nonprofits gave this problem all the time. People get fired up and assume they need to start their own nonprofit. But there may very well already be a nonprofit serving that cause. It’s nice to have the passion, and of course pride in leadership and having done so come into play, but really, it would serve the CAUSE better to join forces and leverage funding and effort together. This is of course, if a similar nonprofit already exists.
I don’t see a reason to separate pregnant/parenting after IF so severely. After IF, I’ve found the experience truly changes your parenting experience. Even making it to the other side, you still often feel as an “other.” I like the link to those TTC and build their families. And of corse, those continuing to build their families at still dealing with IF.
I hope you don’t cull this part of your blogroll. I think it’s an important part, and I really only trust it from you.